The Fight for the Ant Hill Continues

by: michael in chicago

Mon Nov 12, 2007 at 17:36:40 PM CST


I'll be honest: I'm getting tired of the fight for domination of the ant hill that Austin Mayor notes often is closer to a dung hill.

Here's the latest dust up: The DuPage Dems send out a press release with a quote from currently acting county Chairman Robert Bisceglie that states, in part:

"Robert Bisceglie, Chair of the Democratic Party of DuPage County, today announced that their campaign to recruit precinct committeemen more than doubled last year's numbers."

Of course, if you read this blog, you know that I've posted  about how PC recruitment is up over 100% in no small part to the work of Operation: Turn DuPage Blue (OTDB).

So of course this apparent claiming of credit thanks to the choice of the word "their" in the release gets everyone shorts in a bunch, garnering a response from Peickert at OTDB's blog that triggers cries of divisiveness! from Bridget at her blog.

Since I've decided that I'm the best one to judge who is out of line in this case, my verdict in the case of the Activists vs. Count Party and suggestions for ending this struggle for control of a local ant hill party after the jump...
michael in chicago :: The Fight for the Ant Hill Continues
First regarding the activists charge of egregious credit taking by the local party:

I've only seen this one quote from Bisceglie, not the whole release. Quite frankly, it does appear as worded that Rob is taking credit for all recruitment successes. This is troubling for a great many reasons from a PR standpoint. But one would have to have his head buried in the ant hill pretty deep to not have a clue that such a statement/omission might upset the activists.

And with good reason. If you read the tone of OTDB's post on recruitment success, there is a decidedly different tone focusing on cooperation with the local township organizations leading to greater success.

Now I'd like to see the whole press release (if you've got it, post it in the comments). But based only on this one quote, I'd rule in favor of the activists. It would have been all too easy to give a tip-o-the-hat to OTDB in this statement, especially in light of the past history and claims of inclusiveness. Maybe this is mentioned later in the release. If it's not in there at all, especially based on OTDB's significant contribution to the recruitment effort, then I'd also award damages to the activists for a mind-numbing omission on the County Party's part.

Regarding the counter charge of divisiness raised by Bridget:
I'm sorry, B. I like you and you're my friend, but your post about divisiveness is just more divisive. The post has some valid points about Bob's participation I'd like to follow up on, but tends to fall back on some pretty divisive and insulting language that serves no purpose other than fanning the flames. Calling out your opponent for doing something that appears to be a credit grab is not divisive, just a display of backbone. Doing it with statements like this isn't divisive:

Throughout the recruitment campaign that included independent efforts by OTDB and township organizations, OTDB has recognized the work of everyone who played a role in this unprecedented recruitment period. Having spent many days walking precincts and making phone calls, I realize that no one group could have accomplished this by itself. Chris Hotchkin deserves a lot of credit for working on the county plan. Some townships had their own recruitment plans in place, and OTDB had its plan.

Crediting success to the joint efforts your organization's contributions, township organizations' contributions, and the person in charge at the County organization is not divisive. You support Rob for chair, quite overtly in this post. Therefore, counter suit dismissed on the grounds of partisanship cloaked as a concern trolling about divisiveness.

So how do we end this? Here's my ruling:

1. Thunderdome. Two men enter. One man leaves.
2. Pistols at dawn.

OK, seriously, here's one registered Democrat's advice:

To Rob Bisceglie: Start making inroads with activists by doing the little things like making sure press releases that anyone with any understanding of the county politics could see would just piss off the very activists you will need to work with to get any Democrat elected in DuPage. It's about winning elections, not claiming credit for successes that still leave us with a 2:1 disadvantage to DuPage Republicans.

To Bob Peickert: Start telling us why you're the one to lead the party and what you are going to do to make things better and beat Republicans. It's about winning elections. Even though OTDB contributed a great deal to the successful recruitment of PCs we're still at a 2:1 disadvantage to DuPage Republicans and will have to work together to beat them.

There. Case dismissed. I'm awarding custody of the kids to the voters.
Edited to fix the spelling of Bob Peickert's name — GK
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The Fight for the Ant Hill Continues | 44 comments
I'm an activist, you're an activist, we're all activists (0.00 / 0)
Michael, I do not understand your assertion that the only activists in DuPage County are those associated with Operation Turn DuPage Blue! That is a fallacy. Are you trying to create a contrast that does not exist? Perhaps I'd entertain that thought if Gayl Ferraro was still around, but she's not. The activists associated with the county party, including Rob Bisceglie, successfully got her to step down.

I am not associated with Operation Turn DuPage Blue, though I support most of their activities and I consider some of them friends. But I am certainly an activist, as are the many volunteers associated with the county party! Hell, I'm an activist by trade.

You may be right that my post on my blog serves to be more divisive, but I don't think so. I would like to see less finger pointing from Bob and more reasons why precinct committeepeople like myself should vote for him.

You are correct that I am overtly supporting Rob Bisceglie for chair. I thought I had made that clear! However, if Bob Peickert can convince me that he's the better guy to run the county party, I'll vote for him. So far, I believe Rob Bisceglie is better suited for the job and I have seen nothing from Bob that causes me to think otherwise.

Agree (0.00 / 0)
Insider/outsider? Activist/party office holder? Candidate camp A/Candidate Camp B? Pick your poison.
[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
I think it would be accurate to call everyone DuPage activists. There's nothing to be an insider about. What sort of "inside information" would be the topic of conversation? It's not like there are all kinds of secrets floating around!

There aren't any active "machine Democrats" in the DuPage Dems, Michael. This isnt Chicago. I get the impression that you and others are trying to paint that picture and it just isn't so. However, there are a bunch of people who have been volunteering their time with the party for an awfully long time. Is that what you mean?

I am an activist AND a party office holder (pct. committeewoman). And there are plenty of people active with the county party AND OTDB.

Blankent generalizations are just not going to work here. Much of the idea of division has been created and perpetuated by a few people.

All of us want to see Dems elected in DuPage.

[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
No generalizations, just searching for words.
[ Parent ]
So, what I am saying... (0.00 / 0)
...is that I reject your attempt to categorize and divide us further!

By the way, all in the spirit of debate as you are my friend, too. ;)

Rejection (0.00 / 0)
I take your rejection as further rejection of cooperation and an example of divisive politics.
[ Parent ]
All right you two knock it off and go to your rooms (0.00 / 0)
and don't come out until you agree to play nice.
[ Parent ]
haha (0.00 / 0)
What we haven't said is how we are having a friendly conversation over email as this conversation is going on, lol.

Seriously, I'll be pretty happy when the county convention is over and done with.

[ Parent ]
A pissing contest ... (4.00 / 1)
is just what DuPage Dems do not need.  No doubt the Repubs are watching and taking notes to use all this to their advantage.  The more battle-scarred we are from fighting amongst ourselves at the end of the primary, the more difficult it will be to work together to get Democratic victories in November.
True! (0.00 / 0)
I agree with you completely. Hopefully, regardless of the results, everyone who is involved stays involved. I get really sick of people simply taking their ball and going home.
[ Parent ]
I have refrained from comment but... (4.00 / 2)
I suppose some people have "taken their ball gone home" but I think it would be better to acknowledge that for the most part 2006 saw more local activism than any other cycle in recent memory in DuPage with a very near win for a state rep race.
  2007 saw many of those same activist doing party building and infrastructure building.
  If we are to cure the division it makes more sense to focus on the strides, and they are great, that have been made in the past.
  I do not live in DuPage and I am not active with OTDB though obviously I know many of the members.  I do not know what DuPage looked like before 2003 but in 2003 no township in district 6 had a petition drive for any candidate at any level.  Each candidate was pretty much on their own to get the petitions together.  There also was no advice on what was needed. The county could not even provide a voters list or a list of active Democrats to the candidates let alone walk sheets.
  In 2007 several townships and several OTDB groups held petition drives for candidates at multiple levels.
  Also I know OTDB produced walk sheets and is gathering data from the drives and I have heard that some of the townships did this as well.
  In 4 short years great strides have taken place. 
  So if anyone has taken their ball and gone home in the past four years then they really have not been missed.  Recruiting and organizing in DuPage is at an all time high and it is happening through both OTDB and the DuPage Democratic Party.
[ Parent ]
petitions? (0.00 / 0)
Broc Montgomery filed in the 55th District as the Democratic opposition to the most rightwing member of the General Assembly, Rep. Randy Ramey, Pate's stepson.  Broc got no help on his petitions from either the local Wayne Twp Dems or OTDB.  What does that say about the state of Democratic activism in DuPage?
[ Parent ]
I think what it says is that... (0.00 / 0)
...there's a lot of work to be done, and it's unfortunately not possible to be everywhere. But I can name you a number of candidates who did get considerable petitioning help from O:TDB and the township organizations, which wouldn't have been true four years ago.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone
[ Parent ]
I was willing to canvass for Broc (0.00 / 0)
while I canvassed for precinct committeemen. I was never able to get in touch with him.
[ Parent ]
still on their own (0.00 / 0)
Broc Montgomery had to get on the ballot by himself, with no help from either his Wayne Twp Dems, the County Dems or OTDB.  If it weren't for Broc, Rep. Ramey would've gone unchallenged again -- despite his rating by the United Republican Fund as the most rightwing member of the General Assembly in their 2007 scorecard.
[ Parent ]
It is better but there is still work to be done (0.00 / 0)
DuPage is very large and the activist are still too few in number.  I see great strides but I also know that there is long way to go.
  The Greater Chicago Caucus has been offering trainings for activists.  I think we intend to hold a finance training soon.  My treasuer Judy, who did an outstanding job on my FEC reports, is learning the rules for the state is will be offering a training in the near future so stayed tune.
  Not knowing the rules can cause a candidate a lot of trouble.
[ Parent ]
Here's a link... (0.00 / 0)
...to an email sent out by Jon Myers to the county party email list. I couldn't find the actual press release — the press archive on the county party web site hasn't been updated in two months — but I expect this message, which does not credit O:TDB nor the towship organizations, is essentially similar.

As for "politics of division," this is what politics of division looks like.

As for why Bob Peickert is the most qualified to lead the party, Bob and associates will be making that clear in the months to come. In the meantime, here is a somewhat out-of-date list of what Bob and company have already accomplished working outside of the formal party structure.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

What puzzles me, personally, (0.00 / 0)
is that in the days when 6th Illinois Progressive Democrats looked like a viable organization, both state representative candidate Rob Bisceglie and state representative candidate Joe Vosicky, with campaign manager Bob Peickert, appeared before us and sought our support. Both seemed to be very much our sort of people. The fact that I ended up working for Joe rather than Rob had more to do with geography than anything else.

So as someone who lives in Cook County but has spent a lot of time knocking on doors in DuPage, I find the in-fighting I'm seeing here rather puzzling.

Bill Thomasson

Permission to reprint explicitly granted

Puzzling to me, too N/T (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
You're not seeing infighting here (2.00 / 1)
you're seeing Michael in Chicago demeaning  fellow Democrats and the DuPage Democratic party while others except for Bridget pile on. Michael Your guy Bob wants to be king of that "anthill". It serves no good purpose to 
mock it. 

BTW Gary this is the msg I get when I click on your contact community link:

Whoops! - 500 Error

Site Maintenance

We're sorry, but we're having technical difficulties. Please check back in a few minutes.

Thanks for the patience.

Wrong. (0.00 / 0)
What you're seeing is people asking for credit to be given where it is due.

Criticism of the party's leadership is not demeaning the party itself, no more than criticism of the Bush administration is demeaning the USA. (In no way would I equate Rob Bisceglie with the crooks in the White House, but there is a principle that does apply.)

What site were you trying to access? I checked garykleppe.org and it is up now. It may have been down earlier -- the host had talked about doing upgrades on PHP and MySQL.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

[ Parent ]
"If we don't work together then it doesn't really matter who is king of the ant hill." (1.00 / 1)
That was the first reference to the DuPage County party as an "ant hill" in Michael's original post. He then refers to it that way numerous times including the title of this post. I'm sure the Republicans would love that because it's demeaning OUR party. If you don't think so then tell Bob to incorporate it into his campaign. "Hi, I'm Bob Pieckert and I'm running to be Chairman of the DuPage County Ant Hill." 

I'll give credit where credit is due. I understand Amy ran a number of phonebank nights looking for PCs. I hope OTDB actually walked some precincts doing it too because in my experience that's by far more effective. I tried calling 51 triple D names in one precinct to replace a recently deceased committeeman and got nothing. On Saturdays I'd be able to meet less than half that number but I very rarely ended the day empty handed. Maybe face to face works better for me and the phone for other people but I doubt it.

Amy and Paul Kreft came out for one of our recruitment days in Lisle, Paul may have been around for more. Mike Braun came a bunch of weekends and I think he was originally recruited by OTDB. But that's all the help we got all summer and fall long from OTDB for recruiting as far as I know. Again they may have walked other precincts on their own. I sure hope so. 

As for criticizing the party leadership that's fine. If you think Rob is an idiot, a fool or just plain lazy please let us all know why. He was perfectly acceptable to you when Amy and Bob thought he'd do their bidding last winter. Frankly for all the talk from OTDB about cooperation and common goals I see more backbiting than anything else. OTDB's goals don't seem to go further than trying to take over the county party. Everything else is subservient to that.

If I thought they'd do a better job of electing Dems and growing the county party I wouldn't care about the campaign tactics.  But honestly I'm not impressed by Bob. He couldn't revise his own election paperwork on time like almost every other candidate did last winter. Instead he hired an attorney who did nothing for him when he could have called the State Election Board for advice on how to follow thru if he didn't trust the correct procedure he'd gotten from Gayl Ferraro, and as a result got himself sued.

I got his letter announcing his intention to run for County Chair awhile back like everybody else. In it he said he was enclosing the list of names for his proposed unity cabinet. That list didn't make it into my envelope or many of the other PCs I talked to. Do you see a pattern here? On top of that many were put off by the assumption he considered them allies.

Then we get to Michael's post here on PSB criticizing a letter from Beseglie that I've yet to see anywhere including my inbox or Gary's link that didn't work for me. Turns out Michael inadvertently got his figures mixed up based on second hand info and wound up doing what he accused Rob of doing, giving credit to one organization for more than they apparently deserve.

Interesting that he nows refers to OTDB as the "activists". I don't know if that's because he thinks the rest of us aren't activists or because the OTDB brand isn't looking too good these days. That can happen when your whole message is what you're against and not what you're for. But judging  from the problems I've cited above with completing forms, organizing a simple mailing
and getting the facts straight I can see why attacking Rob is more important than touting your own candidate's capabilities. 


[ Parent ]
There you go again... (3.00 / 1)
First, it was Gary's mistake on the numbers which he publicly corrected in less than 12 hours, which were actually accurate, just not correct for the context presented. The numbers still prove my point: 79 to 38 work with people active locally and do better than working alone. Do you deny the numbers presented, or that OTDB is not responsible for a significant percentage of the increase in PCs? If so, where is your data? I don't see it.

Regarding the letter, Gary's link works fine. Do you deny the quote in my post was not sent out in a press release? Do you not see how this looks very much like claiming all credit for the increase in PCs? Do you see any mention in the text of the release that mentions the work of township organizations or OTDB? I sure don't. If you do, where's your proof? I don't see it.

As for the "activist" label, this was discussed in the comments. What do you call someone or some group that is not part of the official party structure and is active in politics? Concerned citizens? OTDB is an activist group. They are not the only one, nor are activists only OTDB members. Got proof I meant this any other way? I don't see it.

If you think so little of Bob, why all the protesting over a few blog posts by someone who is nothing but a registered Democrat in DuPage? Why all the concern trolling over the "divisive" language? Me thinks Mr. Garrity doth protest too much.

I'm tired of the concern trolling. I heard it with Dean. I heard it with Duckworth. I'm hearing it again over the local leadership race. Basically it goes like this: Don't hold Democrats to the same standard you hold Republicans! Just go along and get along or you're being divisive and helping Republicans!

You know what? I'm pretty confident that the candidates I was told my divisive opinions weren't wanted on are still making a positive differences and substantial contributions to Democratic politics. The "divisive" concern trolling is just a talking point for those who are in positions of leadership facing credible challengers who are raising valid points they'd rather not have attention brought to.

No more getting along. This is politics, not bean bag. If your candidate can't handle the criticism, then buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[ Parent ]
Quoting Reagan? (1.50 / 2)
Paul Kreft was quoting Barry Goldwater when I left Nonnies tonight. What is it with you OTDB guys and Republicans? 

The only criticism you have here of Rob is that you think he's claiming too much credit for the DuPage Democratic Party for the new PCs which isn't at all clear from anything you've have written here at PSB or selective quotes elsewhere. As a matter of fact we had a discussion about this tonight at our DGTD meeting. There is no real way to tell right now which new PCs the DuPage Dem Party or your club can claim as their own. Nonetheless we're all DuPage Dems last I heard, Pieckert himself is vice chair of one of the township party orgs. And when they're elected as precinct committeemen they'll be PCs for the DuPage Democratic Party, the organization Bob wants to be elected to lead which you deride as an "anthill". 

Gary's link didn't work for me and I posted the error msg I got when I clicked on it. Calling me a liar doesn't change that fact  Michael.

I can tell you that the DG organization never refused to work with OTDB, we even let them march in the DG July 4th parade with us in their OTDB T-shirts. They wanted to march separately with their own banner but no one from OTDB bothered to register with the village parade organizers in time so we welcomed them to line up with us.

And despite Gary's claim to the contrary OTDB did recruit at least one new committeeman in a precinct where we already have one in DG township. He is not pleased. Gary shouldn't be either because somebody made a liar out of him. 

The criticisms I made of Bob and your posts show the qualms I and many others have about his leadership and organizational abilities. I didn't make ad hominem attacks over some perceived slight, I'm talking about real issues of competence.

That's not concern trolling Michael, you may not know it but that stuff really matters. Running a club is one thing, running a county party organization within the rules, regulations and laws you have to adhere to is quite another.

I hold Democrats to a high standard, much higher than I hold Republicans. That's why I don't want to elect someone who gets himself sued for sloppy campaign bookkeeping as my chairman. There's not going to be a grace period where he can ease into the job if he gets elected in a big election year. There isn't going to be anyone to show him the ropes or do the grunt work while he's out getting his picture taken with Hillary because if Amy has her way she'll purge the party of all the old hands who actually know what they're doing.

The Republicans won't cut him any slack, they'll be all too happy to tear him another new one if he screws up again, as he's already found out. Only next time it'd cripple the DuPage Dem party for years just when we should be dismantling the DuPage Republican machine. Remember them? They're who we're trying to defeat Michael. At least I am. And you? I dunno. How about another snappy Reagan quote? 


[ Parent ]
The link... (4.00 / 1)
...if you mean this one, still works fine for me, but in case it doesn't for you, I've quoted the content at the bottom of this comment.

Yes, we're fighting against the Republicans. That doesn't mean that Republicans (or their ghostwriters) have never said anything worth quoting, or that repeating anything they've ever said is sacrilegious.

As for the recruitment, I assume you're talking about Mike Kisler? Here's what he recently posted on the SixthDems email list:

There is some confusion about where am living, etc.... Unfortunately, it led to the Turn DuPage Blue Group to run a pct. committeeman candidate in my precinct. This was strictly due to miscommunication. There is no conspiracy here.

That's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Nobody deliberately recruited to get rid of Kisler.

As for competence and being sloppy, it was a screwup by the county party leadership which started that whole business. They mailed out a flier on behalf of all of the Democrats in the county unaware that candidates would need to declare it as an in-kind contribution.

And the "old hands" have made some other bad blunders. Last time around after the primary we had some candidates who were supposed to be slated for office -- Bob Mueller for sheriff is the one that comes to mind -- but the county party never turned in the paperwork.

A well-run party would also take some responsibility for making sure that its candidates got it right. The existing county party leadership has never done this.

Peickert, by the way, has clearly stated that he isn't going to do a total purge. You can see here a list of people he intends to invite into positions within the party leadership, including many from the old guard. But I expect you won't let the facts interfere with your prejudices.

Your attitude here is the same one expressed by the "old hands" last time when Doug Cole challenged Ferraro. They seem to view running a party as an arcane art, something to be known only by the chosen few and passed on only when necessary. That's handy for protecting dynasties, but not so good when one would like to actually accomplish things like winning elections. At Wellstone training, brought to us by Peickert and company, they emphasized that sustainable organizing means not just learning leadership and other skills for yourself but developing them in others. I can't speak for Bob Peickert but I think he clearly understands this; as county party chair he'll not only get it, he'll make sure others get it as well.

As promised, here's the content of the link that you said you couldn't open:

Dear Fellow Democrats:

The dust has settled. At 5 p.m. Monday the Dupage Election Commission closed, and the filing period ended.
The DuPage County Democrats have set a new Precinct Committeeperson record for the Party.

237...

...Precinct Committeepersons shall take office following the February 5th, 2008 election, barring (unlikely) legal challenges.
We didn't just break our record, we blew it out of the water.

Year2008  2006  2004  2002  2000 
Total Committeemen237117128(unknown)95
Total Precincts732732730717717
Percentage Full32%16%18%?13%

Congratulations new and returning PCs!

There is much work still to be done.

More details:

TownshipPrecincts  2006 Elected PCs  2006 Percentage  2008 Elected PCs  2008 Percentage 
Addison64914%2031%
Bloomingdale72811%2636%
Downers Grove1282520%4334%
Lisle9555%2223%
Milton1092927%4945%
Naperville60610%2542%
Wayne3938%410%
Winfield35926%1337%
York1302318%3527%


Want to be a Precinct Committeeperson, but didn't file?
Contact Chris Hotchkin at chotchkin@sbcglobal.net about the possibility of becoming a write-in candidate.


Please contact Jon Myers at jmyers_wheaton@yahoo.com with any questions or feedback regarding this email.


"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone
[ Parent ]
Now it works (0.00 / 0)
So it was probably just a housekeeping snafu at the time I clicked. As to it's content you guys take this email Jon Myers' wrote as a swipe at OTDB or claiming credit where it isn't due? The only people he congratulates are "new and returning PCs!". These PCs are DuPage Democratic Party PCs, not DuPage Green Party, not Republican, not any other party. Should he not acknowledge these gains at all? That's silly. It just sounds like you guys are really grasping at straws trying to stir up trouble. I suggest you leave that to Amy. She's much better at it.

As for Kisler that's not the story he was telling last night. BTW that link is to a member's only Yahoo group. Amy could have called him to find out he was active. Or she could have easily gotten a current DG township PC list (and any county township PC list) from the DuPage Election Commission. She called me up out of the blue one day asking for the DG PC list which I don't have. I suggested she call Kim Savage or Chris Hotchkin who do have the list. She then asked me to confirm my precinct. A week or so later she was promising me in one of her tirades Bob would win the election in March and that I'd be personally "humiliated".

She never bothered calling Kim or Chris. Kim would have gladly informed her where we were recruiting and where we already had PCs so there would be no wasted overlap between the two groups. She's been to a number of OTDB meetings afterall.

As for the flyer I think you're talking about the doorhangers Duckworth paid for with all the candidates names on the back that we non-existent Tammy volunteers hung on election day. $43,000 worth of them. Gayl wasn't unaware that they were inkind contributions, she couldn't get a ruling from the Election Board until two days before the due date. She explained to everyone present at the county meeting that night (including Bob) how to comply, he chose not to follow her instructions. Because of that Bob and Rita were stuck with thousands of dollars in fines and a humiliating harangue from the Republicans at the hearing. Gayl then offered to help them pay the fines with County funds. Several of the candidates who did follow the rules objected to her motion. A candidate who wants to run the county party ought to be someone who gets his own filings in on time.

Regardless Gayl's in Florida now. Your complaints are about her not Rob. I'm not familiar with Doug Cole but if he was clearly superior to Gayl then why didn't he win and why isn't he running again? You call this a dynasty? Gimme a break. Everybody who works for the party in DuPage is a volunteer except for Myers and he's part time and was just hired.

Gary I've been a member of DGTD since June 2006. Didn't do much last year with them
because I spent most of my time volunteering for Duckworth. Nonetheless I've been given several positions of responsibility in the last year because I'm willing to work hard, show up for meetings to stay informed, am fairly intelligent, organized and willing to learn.

The point is there are plenty of positions all across the county available for ANYBODY who wants to do that AND build up the party instead of tear it down. There's a lot of good people here. I'm sure OTDB has more than a few too.

As I see it OTDB is unfortunately following Dick Simpson's unsuccessful model for destroying a machine or "dynasty" that doesn't even exist in the DuPage Democratic party. He didn't bring down the Daley machine in Chicago and to consider the DuPage Dems a machine or dynasty is laughable.

Running the party isn't an arcane art. It has certain legally binding rules and regulations that nobody from OTDB has bothered to come to meetings to learn. If Amy and Bob had spent the last year making friends instead of enemies and finding out what running the party entails they'd probably have a better shot at their goal. That's not what they've chosen to do.

[ Parent ]
Mark; (4.00 / 1)
In reply

Running the party isn't an arcane art. It has certain legally binding rules and regulations that nobody from OTDB has bothered to come to meetings to learn. If Amy and Bob had spent the last year making friends instead of enemies and finding out what running the party entails they'd probably have a better shot at their goal. That's not what they've chosen to do.

In response to this I would say friendship is a two way street.  I wouldn't show up at a county board meeting either if they were hostile to me or the ideas I have for improving the state of the Democratic party in Dupage.  Considering the number of Democrats elected in the county I would think the county leadership should be willing to try anything that has even the slimiest chance of working.  Also, I see it as a duty of the county party to insure candidates do not unintentionally  violate the rules and to support and defend them when they do.

Regardless Gayl's in Florida now. Your complaints are about her not Rob. I'm not familiar with Doug Cole but if he was clearly superior to Gayl then why didn't he win and why isn't he running again? You call this a dynasty? Gimme a break. Everybody who works for the party in DuPage is a volunteer except for Myers and he's part time and was just hired.

If Gayl is in Florida now why did she file to be a delegate for the 6th congressional district in Illinois?  Yes Gayl resigned as county chair but the leadership and methods thereof are largely the same especially since Gayl used her authority as chair to get Rob placed as interim county chair as she resigned.  Also, nowhere in the previous post was Mr. Cole made out to be superior, or inferior, to Gayl. He just commented that the attitudes to challenge were the same then as now.  You do not address that point and it is irrelevant to that point that Mr. Cole lost or did not run again.  Is this a straw man argument or a non-sequitur?  Next.  Just because these are volunteer positions does not mean it is not a 'dynasty'.  I do not understand Gayl's motivations for being county chair or why she objects to OTDB but being paid, once again, is irrelevant.

For a person who supposedly does not participate in 'ad hominem' attacks you seem to attack Amy on a personal level frequently as opposed to her ideas.  You also attribute motivations and future actions that Amy will take without proof that she has indicated she would do them.  As a personal note if Amy wanted purge you from the party I would support her in that.  However I have never heard her say anything of the sort.  I would also bet Amy has never had a candidate tell her to moderate her behavior or stop working form them.

[ Parent ]
Ah Delver (1.00 / 2)
Do you still think you're Peter Roskam?
[ Parent ]
Fish in a barrel. (4.00 / 1)
Once again, the problem we had with the Myers email and associated press release is that it failed to give credit where it is due.

Once again, Amy asked you for this information after you had started telling people that O:TDB was recruiting against existing PCs. Your accusation, your responsibility to back it up. I do agree that she shouldn't go out of her way to embarrass you. You do a good enough job of that all on your own.

The Kisler email from which I posted excerpts was genuine. I don't know who admins that list, but a number of people who frequent this site are on it and should be able to vouch for it. If he's telling your group a different story then that's something you ought to take up with him.

The flyer I mentioned was a piece that the county party mailed out with the pictures of all the local candidates. I think the caption was something like "What the Republicans are doing to the country they're doing to DuPage" with a picture of a big screw. I'm pretty sure there was no offer to pay the fines, but the fines weren't the issue; the issue was the legal fees spent contesting the case by Peickert and by Carol Davis, Rita Gonzalez' campaign manager. Even though there's a legal defense fund set up, the county party refused to provide more than a token amount -- an amount, in fact, that Carol Davis herself had previously donated to that fund.

Whether Cole was the superior candidate is a matter of opinion. I think he was. He lost because he got started very late, and because Ferraro and friends ran a smear campaign against him behind his back. He isn't running again because he is supporting Peickert.

As for positions of responsibility, this again we've been over before. O:TDB volunteered to take charge of county recruiting. Officially Ferraro told us that she'd like to work with us but can't because the township organizations' chairs were against it. (Meanwhile, Ferraro was pressuring at least one such chair to not work with O:TDB.) Unofficially, Bob was told by Rob Bisceglie that O:TDB could get official status only if we kicked Amy Tauchman out of the group, a demand Peickert rightly decided was ridiculous.

As for Simpson having an "unsuccessful model" because there's still a Chicago machine, Tom Tomorrow put it better than I could:

No, there isn't a Democratic machine in DuPage. You may be aware that there is a Republican one, and I'd think that someone with experience in organizing against one type of machine might be able to tell us something useful in organizing against another, wouldn't you? Or if not, then just out of curiosity, who would you turn to for advice in beating the Republicans?

The real reason, of course, that you feel it necessary to dismiss Simpson's expertise is that he's criticized the current DuPage Democratic Party as ineffective. Without a rationale for discounting him, you might have to consider that he's right, and that it will take someone like Bob Peickert to change that.

I've been to enough of the county party meetings to know that they aren't a place to learn about rules and regulations. I do remember Ferraro mentioning such rules as another rationale for not working with O:TDB, but of course she would never tell us what those rules were.

And of course, Bob and Amy and the rest of us have been making friends. That you've chosen not to be one of them is your problem, not ours.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

[ Parent ]
Gratuitous insults and cheesy BS (1.50 / 2)
is all you have Gary? That and reprinting a Tom Tomorrow cartoon in it's entirety without permission.

It never even occurred to me that OTDB would bother recruiting in DG let alone against any existing committeemen here until Amy's weird phonecall and her subsequent outburst about wanting to humiliate me. It wasn't hard to put two and two together. Her threat was pointless as I already had 30 signatures on my petitions and had been to every triple D and most double Ds in my precinct canvassing for candidates when she made it.

I still don't know what got into her. The only other time I remember talking to her for any length of time was at Shannons after the April township meetings where we didn't get the DAWN Out of Iraq referendum on the ballot. I spent an hour or so buying her wine and giving her cigarettes trying to find out why she didn't try to take over from the inside instead of throwing stones from outside the party. I guess she decided I was a "traitor" like Rob after that.

BTW you'll recall DG was only township where the Out of Iraq referendum made it on the  ballot in 2006 thanks to DGTD. 

I don't care who you get to vouch for anything Gary. I've caught you peddling BS more than once and that's enough for me.
Now that you guys have dredged up an opponent for Kisler he probably doesn't want you clowns making his life any harder. Of course he's gonna try to make it out to be nothing in hopes you'll go away.

You guys think you're making friends but maybe you've noticed how people walk away when you start venting your spleen. You've put together a kewl kidz club that is becoming very exclusive. Nobody who wants to form their own opinions need apply.

[ Parent ]
Facts are stupid things (4.00 / 2)
That quote seems applicable to most of your arguments here...

For instance your insistance on Bob's being "sloppy" in his paperwork and your continued insistance of pushing the GOP talking points they used against him. First, it would have been nice if the County hadn't caused this mess through their sending out a flyer and not telling candidates how to properly report it on their paperwork. Second this issue applied to several candidates, not just Bob. Third, this was done in reprisal for Bob's challenge of Vosicky's election results by the GOP. You remember Vosicky, right? The near first ever victory for a Democrat at that level in DuPage. Bob was his campaign manager and got results, then wouldn't take the County GOP schnanigans with voting machines. Once again, results and backbone for him. GOP talking points for you.

Regarding DG, you can "tell me" all you want, I've seen emails backing up the assertations that OTDB was told to not interfer in DG.

Gary's link and recruting against PCs is addressed below. But I'd just like to point out that Kisler - the PC in question who I also know - seems to have pretty much addressed this issue. And since he's the PC "recruited against" that doesn't actually feel recruited against, you may want to reconsider this line of argument.

Republicans won't cut Democrats any slack. It's time we stop as well.

You want to continue to question my Democratic creds, go ahead. But you might want to get some facts. They really matter.

[ Parent ]
C'mon Michael (0.00 / 0)
The $700 in kind contribution pushed some candidates including Bob over the $5000 itemizing threshhold. Every other candidate except for Bob and Rita managed to get their paperwork revised in time. Those are facts. You may not like them but it is the truth so let's not pretend we can blow it off as "stupid". 

The Election Board didn't make a ruling on the classification and at what dollar amount until two days before the filing deadline. Most campaigns near the threshhold simply had to plug in the $700 and redo the total because they'd already itemized. But apparently not Bob.

You say the Repubs went after him because of his efforts on behalf of Joe. I think the Repubs would have gleefully gone after any Dem who screwed up. And they'll have a field day if we elect him chair. That's reality. I'm not using GOP talking points I'm holding a Democrat to a high standard. I don't just give lip service to the phrase.

And what results? He didn't get Joe on the Board. He didn't even get a full recount did he? What you call backbone I call grandstanding. That's a fine quality in a candidate who needs the exposure, not so much in a party functionary like county chair whose job is mainly in support behind the scenes. He really ought to run for elective  office again, and have Amy run his campaign. He likes the limelight, she's probably a better organizer than he is and seems to relish smiting her enemies. I think everybody would be happier if they did that against Republicans. 


[ Parent ]
There's those facts again (4.00 / 1)
The value of the in-kind donation was significantly greater than your stated amount, and $3,000 is the limit for in-kind, not $5,000. Those are the facts, and they are not stupid. They change the way this story is presented and how it affects candidates who are under the in-kind limit, especially when the County didn't even know the value of their action.

But this is all you want to harp on. A ticky-tack political reprisal that could have been avoided if the County leadership understood the in-kind rules and communicated this to the candidates that its own actions put over the in-kind limit. Even Ferarro noted that this was a reprisal (I have supporting documentation on this).

Bottom line here Mark is that we're not going to agree. But especially where we are not going to agree is your last paragraph. You deride me and people like Bob as not fighting Republicans. Yet you see candidates who run hard against Republicans and lose as not getting results. Even when they get closer than anyone ever has or are a significant cause for increases in PCs. Nope. No results there. What is your basis of comparison? The history and results previously gained by the County party? 17% PCs filled and no elected Democrats in DuPage? That's one hell of a yardstick you got there.

Even your statement about not getting a full recount is repulsive. Again, even Ferarro saw the benefits of Bob's challenge and noted so in email (again, I have documentation). But what do you see? "Grandstanding." Fighting Republicans - something you say "too bad" we're not doing - by challenging their questionable victories is not a result, but grandstanding. That's warped beyond belief.

What people who run for office do is a huge result. Getting close, although not a victory, is a huge result. Claiming that what Vosicky did, through Bob's management, as "grandstanding" is insulting beyond belief. It is even more insulting in that at the time of this "grandstanding" OTDB was not in existence, Bob was not a candidate for anything other than County Board, and the candidate he was calling attention to was Joe Vosicky.

Get your facts straight. He got the Republican's attention. Too bad people like you were too busy fighting Republicans to notice Republicans going after one of our own for daring to fight back.

[ Parent ]
Michael (1.00 / 1)
This conversation like most of our conversations is going nowhere. You're right about one thing we are not going to agree. I suggest for Pieckert's benefit you stop demeaning the party organization he hopes to lead. I also suggest for the good of the party we steer clear of each other.

The sad thing is we probably all agree on the issues more than any of us knows. But you guys aren't interested in building the party, you're only interested in tearing it down. if you ever win that way, and it's doubtful you ever will because Dems just aren't into the politics of personal destruction the way Republicans are, it'll be a pyrrhic victory at bast.

Gary throws baseless insults my way on the net but didn't even have the courage to look at me when I said hello to him Saturday night. I suggest you do the same.

[ Parent ]
Mark (0.00 / 0)
Again, I disagree, and not on what you think. I think we should continue to interact because it IS good for the party. I think bringing contrasting points to light and arguing about them (as long as we keep it respectful and factual) is good for everyone.

I'm very interested in building the party. We just disagree on how to do this and the direction to take. That's not bad. That's the Democratic process. Calling out and supporting arguments is not divisive, it's part of the Democratic process.  And just because I disagree with you does not make it personal, nor does it mean that I'm wrong and don't want to build the party.

These are the types of baseless insults that are not going to sway me, nor do they look good for you, yet you continue to toss them every chance you get. Then you wonder why you get return fire. This is very analogous to the movement to change over local party leadership.

As to your last line, do mean that I shouldn't say hello to you or that I meeting you is something I should fear? I don't know if we'll ever meet, as I'm not the most social. But if we do, I will not be afraid of saying hello to you. It would be interesting to put a face to a name. But I'm not sure that conversation will go much beyond hello unless you show me you are willing to open your mind to others opinions.

[ Parent ]
Demeaning (0.00 / 0)
One more regarding this line for your benefit and any others who read me as demeaning anyone:
I suggest for Pieckert's benefit you stop demeaning the party organization he hopes to lead.

A critical part of any process from design to engineering to education, is evaluation and assessment. Looking at the results of  actions and their results objectively and honestly does not mean that one is looking to "demean" anyone, but instead to assess the success or failure of these past actions and those who's authority it was to implement them.

It does not mean that those involved are incompetent, nor that they are not working hard or toward a common goal of those within and without an organization.

Assessment and evaluation are instead a necessary and valid means of looking for systems that need to be re-evaluated, changed, or scrapped. It is a basis of comparison, and a common method utilized in most professions.

To do this effectively, assessment must be looked at objectively, not personally. An aversion to assessment is often an obstacle when people refuse to take responsibility for past results, and then take assessment of these results personally. This is often one of the biggest obstacles to organizational improvement and personal growth.

By calling attention to past performance of the County party, I am not trying to demean anyone, but to call attention to actions and results many like myself believe need changing. There has been a lack of support for candidates running in DuPage.  There has been a lack of focus on building a data base. There has been a lack of recruitment effort of PCs until very recently. There was an significant increase in townships that worked with OTDB above that that did not. Vosicky did come closer to winning than we've seen in recent memory. Bob did run his campaign and did challenge the GOP. Bob did make a mistake on his paperwork, but the County shares responsibility for this mistake and did not provide timely assistance that might have prevented this error. Bob was not the only candidate to make this mistake. It was clear that this violation was used by the GOP as politically motivated reprisal for challenging election results.

None of this is demeaning to anyone. It is data to be used for assessment.

We all are flawed. The sooner we as individuals get over this, accept responsibility for our flaws objectively and undertake changes based on objective assessment rather than personal ego, the sooner we can grow as individuals and organizations.

[ Parent ]
You oughta find somebody to pay you by the word (2.00 / 1)
Jesus Michael you can drag out a paragraph longer than I can. And I'm a wordy f*ck from way back.

There's no "assessment and evaluation" involved in your criticism of Rob for supposedly taking credit for all the new PCs which you haven't shown he's even tried to do. It's just a swipe with no basis. There's also none involved in calling the DuPage Democratic party an "anthill". That's just a demeaning insult to everybody who considers themselves a Democrat in DuPage. That's not going to help anybody recruit new PCs or get people to vote for our candidates. Republicans reading that would love nothing better than to cite it as a talking point.

When it comes to talking about taking responsibility for past results it's disingenuous to try to pin the faults you perceive of Ferraro on Bisceglie. Everybody, including Pieckert and Tauchman knew the Vice Chair position he accepted was a prelude to taking over the chair when Gayl stepped aside. That was fine with them when they thought they could get him to pressure Ferraro into giving them the control they sought. So pretending he's some kind of cipher is ridiculous just because he refused to march to their drummer. He's got the education, experience and qualifications to expand this party and win elections just when we're poised to do it. He is the change we needed at the top to expand the local party structure and manage that larger operation to win elections.

You complain there's been a lack of support for candidates after complaining about the support they did receive last year. Rob is raising money for candidates with a goal of $100,000 for next year. That's what those township fundraisers are about. And to show OTDB's "cooperation" they held a fundraiser of their own on the same night we held the first one in DG township this summer. In an attempt to drive down turnout at the special election October 30 which even Amy conceded Bob couldn't win OTDB held their own Halloween party the same night in Naperville. The first may have been just a coincidence due to lack of communication but the second? That was deliberate. In both cases it didn't matter, we had standing room only at both events. 

The County provided assistance that every other candidate except Bob and Rita was able to use to adjust their paperwork on time. That Bob chose not to accept that advice or hadn't bothered to keep his books in order during the course of the campaign isn't anybody's fault but his own. And yes the Republicans used the violation against him and they'll keep using it against him in the future. Not because he showed some inordinate amount of "backbone" in the recount. They did it and will keep doing it because they can.

As for your comments about accepting flaws I suggest you take my criticisms of Bob and Amy in that light.

Frankly none of us in either organization should puff out our chests and claim we're  doing such a bang up job recruiting PCs. The Repubs have done such a poor job governing at all levels that people are desperately looking to us for alternatives. We're doing well but we can do much better. And on that note I have some phonecalls to make and prospective PCs to visit.

 

[ Parent ]
With less words (0.00 / 0)
Statement:
There's no "assessment and evaluation" involved in your criticism of Rob for supposedly taking credit for all the new PCs which you haven't shown he's even tried to do. It's just a swipe with no basis.

Basis:

"Robert Bisceglie, Chair of the Democratic Party of DuPage County, today announced that their campaign to recruit precinct committeemen more than doubled last year's numbers."

In addition to the above quote, there is no mention of OTDB or Township efforts what so ever in the press release this quote comes from.

That's a pretty glaring omission IMO that lead me to the assessment presented in my post.

[ Parent ]
Let's look at that statement (0.00 / 0)
"Robert Bisceglie, Chair of the Democratic Party of DuPage County, today announced that their campaign to recruit precinct committeemen more than doubled last year's numbers."

The township chairs worked in conjunction with us and if understand you right some of them worked with OTDB to recruit PCs too. The way we worked it was a different township chair each week and Chris Hotchkin put together maps and walksheets of the prime precincts to target. We volunteers showed up, got our maps and lists and hit the streets. At the end of the day we went back to the township chair's house or the local diner we met at in the morning and turned in our info. The township chair was responsible for follow up with the prospects.

I thought I had an awful day in Winfield Township and thought everybody else did too judging by Susan Lubonvich's reaction. Nobody home at more than half the frontdoors and a lot of indifference from the people I did talk to. But it turns out some of the stuff we said or the lit we left must have sunk in because she was thrilled to get 4 new PCs, one of whom was from the precinct I and another woman worked. But who knows? Maybe it was a phonecall from OTDB that clicked. Maybe it was Susan's newsletter or her followup. Maybe it was a combination of all the contacts. Like I said before there's really no way to divvy up the credit and who cares anyway? I'm not in this for personal credit I'm in this to elect more and better Democrats. 

New committeemen will be DuPage County Democratic party committeemen. If Bob wins the election he will be the chair of the DuPage County Democratic party and OTDB will cease to exist. If Rob wins I suppose OTDB will go on in opposition to the DuPage Democratic party. The new PCs will continue to be DuPage Democratic party PCs unless they decide that opposing the local party is more important than electing Democrats and they drop out. I doubt most of them care about harping over nonsense like this. 


[ Parent ]
Circular arguments (0.00 / 0)
So one comment previous you say I'm making claims with no basis, then this comment you say none of this matters as everyone worked together, using the basis of my baseless post to make your point. That's a circular argument.

But your last paragraph is the most circular. OTDB works with townships, helping increase PC recruitment significantly. Yet if Bob is not elected Chair, using your logic, OTDB would then work against the Party?  Are you saying the organization with the following mission would work against the party:

-> To get Democrats elected in and from DuPage County.

-> To fill Precincts with Democratic Committeemen and Committeewomen

-> To keep DuPage County Board Member compensation commensurate with the part-time commitment required

-> To heighten the profile of Democrats throughout DuPage

-> To provide training resources for individuals wishing to become involved in politics

-> To increase youth involvement and bring more first-time voters to the polls in 2008

-> To promote a better environment for future generations

-> To provide support to important causes and community groups

Based on this and OTDB's progress toward these goals to date (see the link for results for each one of these mission goals), how again does your statement that OTDB would work against the party make sense?  Sounds a lot to me like the "you're either with us or against us" argument Republicans use to demean their political opponents and distract from their record. Are you claiming that being active in the Democratic process is somehow being un-Democratic?

Let me put it to you this way: What if Peickert wins the Chairmanship? Are you going to support him as Chairman or drop out? If you or others want to make this claim toward OTDB supporters, the same question is valid for people like yourself. Will you abide by the outcome of the democratic process and support the elected Chairman?

[ Parent ]
You're not really that dense are you? (0.00 / 0)
The whole basis of your original post is your claim that Rob is taking too much credit for the recruitment of PCs based on that one sentence. I point out how and why your claim doesn't make any sense.

And for cryin out loud OTDB has worked against the DuPage Dem party since it's inception last winter. That's it's whole raison d'être: OTDB wants to take over the party from the outside. Why have the organization at all if that's not the case?
Don't believe me, go read Amy's hero Dick Simpson's books. They aren't about beating Republicans, they are about beating the
Chicago Democratic machine.

Instead of the cooperation and coordination toward common goals you guys periodically claim to be for you've held events on the same nights we've had ours. You've recruited at least one PC candidate against an existing one which Amy professed she'd never do. Whether these were mistakes or intentional doesn't matter. Any one of these conflicts could have been avoided with a simple phonecall.

Snide remarks and making mountains out of molehills is all you have to criticize Rob with while I've pointed out some serious organizational flaws I see with Bob and OTDB.

As for making mountains out of molehills I sent out an email in late August to DG Dems urging them to attend the Labor Day parade in Naperville following up a request from the Naperville township people. To help light a fire under our guys I closed with "unless you'd prefer to let OTDB do it."  As I understand it this wound up being passed around one of OTDB yahoo groups or listservs as some kind of huge insult. How ridiculous.

I don't care what your mission statement says, hell the mission statement of the Republican party is full of nice sounding platitudes too. Actions speak louder than words.

But to prove what you say is true why not get Bob and Amy to pledge that no matter who wins the chair election in March they'll dissolve OTDB and work with the party to elect Democrats next fall? As I said before there's all kinds of positions that go begging for activists in the county and townships all over DuPage. Especially for people who are less interested in becoming bigshots than they are in getting Democrats elected.

 

[ Parent ]
Interesting Omission (0.00 / 0)
Note in that whole comment you didn't answer my question and say if you'd support Peickert should via the democratic process be elected Chairman of the party.
[ Parent ]
He'd have tro earn my respect (0.00 / 0)
which to date he hasn't done.

I'm not worried about it because I doubt he'll win. Now how about answering my question? Would you get Bob and Amy to pledge that no matter who wins the chair election in March they'll dissolve OTDB and work with the party to elect Democrats?

[ Parent ]
Can only speak for myself (4.00 / 1)
I can't "get" anyone to do anything. But as far as dissolving OTDB, I doubt that would happen, nor be any more reasonable to happen, than dissolving the Hispanic Caucus, Greater Chicago Caucus, NAACP, Progressive Democrats of America, or any other Democratic group that works outside the party structure in support of greater party goals. Even if Bob wins, I don't see OTDB going away, just working more closely with the DuPage Democrats.

OTDB is not a "threat" to Democrats. I don't understand why you see a group working within the democratic process as threatening to the process. That's just Democracy in action.

[ Parent ]
The Fight for the Ant Hill Continues | 44 comments
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