Tipping Point on Health Care

Did you want to discuss, or was this an expression of despair? (3.00 / 1)

"All because of our insistence on the barely acceptable becoming the enemy of the awful."

Anything that competes with the for-profits is the "enemy of the awful". I'm not one that sees a robust public option as necessarily a dead-end, but it will only be a beginning, if a single-payer system is really the only way to ultimately control costs. It will require unrelenting political pressure. It may have to wait until the current crop of near-worthless (or worse) Dems get primaried out of their jobs.

Or maybe people haven't felt enough pain - yet.

---

by: razorgirl @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 15:21:41 PM CDT

Sorry I should have posted a Rant alert. (3.00 / 1)

A "robust public option" would be much better than barely acceptable, it could indeed lead to the demise of a huge chunk of the private insurance industry. I would love a robust public option.

I just haven't seen Obama stand up and fight for it. And that's what it will take now. Obama can't just be for it. He's got to spend a lot of his political capital on it. But I don't see it yet. I sure hope he's "waiting to see the withs of their eyes" and then he'll come out guns a blazing. But if he is, he's sure got me fooled.

Jeff Wegerson

---

by: wegerje @ Tue Jun 23, 2009 at 21:27:40 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i agree... (3.00 / 1)

i suspect health care is all but dead for another 15 years.  this should be a lesson for the administration.  they lost all the momentum they were trying to gather to calls for inclusion of single payer (which i think has 2 votes in the senate), which gave republicans enough pause to find their attack lines.

reviving health care reform now would take massive white house intervention, probably require a postponement of hearings on his supreme court justice, and keeping congress in session in august.  even then, i don't see how it passes this year.  the country, the congress, are too divided on the details.

in the end, those who prefer no bill (or will vote no) are going to be on both sides of the political spectrum -- the person who serves one of the "new" congressional districts in florida says that they (the president) only has 36 votes in the senate, and she's not taking any risks if it can't be signed into law.  a coalition of the ideological, if you were, is poised to defeat it.  more to the point, celinda lake told her that she hasn't found a single congressional district where a member would be punished for voting against health care reform.  there is simply no consensus around specifics that bring voters out to punish elected officials.

but at least the perpetual debate over single payer will continue.  i'm starting to believe the i will die before major health care reform happens in this country.  the white house blew this one, plain and simple...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 06:48:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

kinda interesting that stan greenberg... (0.00 / 0)

came to a similar conclusion in his interview last night on atc.  "public view of health care same as in clinton era" is the story.  his article in the new republic addresses "why health care could fail again."

i don't think he even considered the increasing tilt in the ideological scale towards conservatism (and away from liberalism)...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 06:39:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've been pushing the fence-sitters I know to... (0.00 / 0)

watch "Sicko".  Even the Michael Moore haters among them come away converts.  I think Americans are caught in the meme that "we have the best health care in the world" meme, even though we're actually 37th in quality, but, 1st in price.

Maybe we should just pay $15 million to put in on a couple networks and hope it goes viral.

---

by: BobB @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:06:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

the problem is... (0.00 / 0)

that there is fairly wide agreement that the system sucks.  the dilemma is that there is also fairly wide opinion that most people like their current health care plan, and are afraid of losing it.  sicko reinforces our impetus towards reform, but self-preservation pushes back.  until something about these two conflicting views held simultaneously by the same people (one side saying the system sucks, the other supporting their current plan) changes real health care reform will be difficult to pass.  i'm don't see sicko as a solution to that dilemma.

it all comes down to votes, and the votes just aren't there yet.  democracy isn't a very good system for instant change...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:41:49 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Have you seen it? 'Sicko' shows (probably through... (0.00 / 0)

at least a slightly rose colored lens) that the scare tactics that you hear about aren't true.  That conservatives in Canada and the UK wouldn't exchange their systems for ours.

I know that even with some of the best coverage there is, that my children's doctor has a 3-4 month wait for a non-emergency procedure here.

Again, I advocate the education of the ignorant.  Through whatever means necessary.

---

by: BobB @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 09:54:25 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i have seen it... (0.00 / 0)

i just think it's not the "system sucks" area that needs to be addressed, but the fears around "giving up health care coverage that i like."  i think it reinforces the wrong side of the coin.

as much as people agree that our health care system is sick, it doesn't change the fact that it's not a visceral issue.  9% of voters ranked it as their most important issue in the last election (up from 8% in the last two presidential elections), while only 7% cited it as their most important concern in the most recent cbs/nyt poll.  the "happy with my health care plan" seems to outweigh the consensus that our health care system is too expensive for the product that it delivers the average america in any one year...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 10:50:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ignorant - stupid - uneducated (0.00 / 0)

I think you missed my comment where I explained that to be ignorant you needed to be educated. Before you can ignore something you need to have some education about it.

So in that case the stupid need education whereas the ignorant need a slap in the face, metaphorically, of course.

Jeff Wegerson

---

by: wegerje @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 13:19:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

people don't so much "like" their plan... (0.00 / 0)

...as believe that it is the best deal they can get among options that range from tolerable to horrific. I myself have a "good enough" plan, but this year had to scale back to be get coverage from my boss (up to 6% of my salary). On the basis of rate increases during the last 3 years, next year, it will be worse, and I will be paying for a chunk of this (and what I pay will NOT be tax deductible .. we buy our own plans, the company reimburses).

But when 72% of the public is behind a "public option", and most would be behind a single payer plan, if the result was as reliable as Medicare (even with 8 yrs of Bush trying to destroy it...), I can only believe that the Dems are bought and paid for, even if not ideologically aligned, with the for-profit healthcare protection racket.

It may be finished, but maybe BHO is sitting down with WJC and plotting some political sleight-of-hand. If not, we're back to crawling our way to "square zero", and primarying the blue dogs and their wannabes.

---

by: razorgirl @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 10:56:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

i guess we can read our own conclusions... (0.00 / 0)

into the data.  i can only assume that when they say they like their health plan, they like it.  the washpost survey is rather extensive, you might want to take a look.

since we don't seem to agree what people think (despite the plethora of data out there telling us what they think), i suppose it's unlikely that we'd reach the same conclusion.  but, sure, primary their asses...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 12:55:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Satisfaction (4.00 / 1)

"Are you satisfied with your current plan" really isn't the pertinent question.

I'm basically satisfied with my twenty-year old Mazda 323 as a secondary car, but if somebody offered me a brand new Prius in exchange I wouldn't say no.

"Which would you prefer: your current plan, or this certain alternative" is what would be more revealing, preferably after detailing what the alternative will cost and what benefits it will provide.

For example, with respect to HR 676, "Suppose you could pay 3.3 percent of your salary, with your employer paying the same amount. (This is in addition to current payroll taxes.) In return you would be able to go to any medical provider you choose and receive whatever care that provider determined to be appropriate at no further charge. Prescription drugs, dental, vision, and mental health care would also be included. Would you prefer this, or would you prefer your current health coverage?"

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

---

by: Gary Kleppe @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 13:24:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

see? voters are stupid... (0.00 / 0)

if they only thought about the issue the way you did, then they might share your conclusion.  unfortunately, we allow freedom of thought (to some extent) in this country, and people get to define satisfaction any way they choose.

otoh, given the depth of polling about this particular issue over the last six months and last decade or so, we have a pretty good idea about whether people are really satisfied with their health care coverage.  and we also know the depth of their concerns about single payer (no matter how you dress it up).  the dilemma is that we allow people to express their opinions and they aren't so perfect on the ideological scale...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 13:43:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Um... huh? (0.00 / 0)

I'm not out to curtail anyone's freedom of thought, nor am I calling anyone stupid. I do think that voters making good decisions tends to depend on their having relevant information, which is why I suggested elsewhere in this thread that all proposed plans should be compared side-to-side in terms of what benefits they'd provide and their costs.

None of that is the point, which is that "Are you satisfied with X?" is a different question from "Would you exchange X for Y?"

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

---

by: Gary Kleppe @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 14:29:10 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

i would love to see that question polled... (0.00 / 0)

using a scientific methodology.  but what it really comes down to is the fact that politics is a leisure sport, and there are a lot of people in this country with neither the time nor the inclination to think about how health care ought to be organized.  iirc, the "happy with my coverage" was the default position of 80+ percent of respondents in the washpost poll.

we're not going to get truly major changes in health care until that number is substantially lower...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 14:37:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

too broke.. (0.00 / 0)

We are too broke to fix this. Not too broke to continue wars, not too broke to add miles of cement to nowhere, but too broke to give our citizens a basic human right. And bored now, that "15 years" is just about the right period for the complete collapse as well.

mission accomplished

---

by: scout @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:07:29 AM CDT

My favorite argument is "We spent a trillion $ and counting... (0.00 / 0)

on the Iraq War and virtually none of the money came here, but, spend a trillion $ on "us"?  That's crazy talk!"

---

by: BobB @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:36:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

voters are stupid... (0.00 / 0)

somehow, spending money on an immoral invasion and occupation is ok, but spending money on health gives voters pause.  it would be cheaper to bail out the insurance companies (not that they need it) and give them an annual stipend than to continue what we have now.

but this is a great real-life example of irv.  everybody's second option is to do nothing...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:31:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm sure there's a different 'bored now' who would... (0.00 / 0)

take the position that voters are not stupid, but, uneducated.  When I find him, I'll introduce the two of you.

:-)

---

by: BobB @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:58:39 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

they are different things??? (0.00 / 0)

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 10:02:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

At least they are not "ignorant" (0.00 / 0)

because you have to be educated to be ignorant.

Jeff Wegerson

---

by: wegerje @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 10:14:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

;-) n/t (0.00 / 0)

---

by: BobB @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 10:27:29 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Not everybody's (0.00 / 0)

Not mine for ****** sure.

Bill Thomasson

Permission to reprint explicitly granted

---

by: wathomasson @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 21:16:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Second opinion? (0.00 / 0)

I'll admit that I don't know what my second option is.

I really want to see detailed facts on all the plans being proposed. Whom will they cover? For what? What will they cost the users and/or their employers -- not just premiums but also co-pays, deductibles, etc. if any? If they need to be subsidized out of general public funds, what will that cost? Once we get information, we can make a rational decision.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

---

by: Gary Kleppe @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 08:27:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

btw... (0.00 / 0)

look, i understand that it is much easier to pontificate about what the american people want when your primary contact with them is through a computer screen.  but if you are really interested in talking to voters about the issues that they care about and listening to their concerns, we (team obama) are conducting a health care issues canvass down in the south suburbs.  this health issues canvass is loosely based upon the issues canvass we used in hanover for christine cegelis (which led to her winning every precinct that we touched in hanover township).  our effort is the beginning of an attempt to send progressive leadership from the southland to the county commission as well as defeat the republican mayor that the bloom township democratic chair appointed to fill the seat of democrat george scully.  more to the point, our focus on these two county commission seats is a goal that was impressed upon me in my last sit down with sandra verthein.  so y'all should feel invited to join us and hear what average voters are really thinking.  it's a lot harder to believe that voters have all this information (or, for jeff, education) after you've actually talked to dozens of them at their doors...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 14:32:33 PM CDT

Hm. (0.00 / 0)

Not sure if this is addressed to me in particular.... Unless you've been operating a 24/7 Kleppe-cam that I don't know about, please don't presume to know what contacts I have and haven't had.

Yes, I do realize that people aren't as well-informed on these issues as we might like. (Though it's surprising how often you run into people who do know what single-payer is.) I just figure the cure for that is to provide information. And I don't mean that the way you probably think I do, like I'm the great teacher and everybody else ought to think what I think. I mean let's have some hard analysis of all the various plans by a competent neutral party (the CBO or GAO, perhaps) and publish the gist of the results.

I probably won't do your canvas, because here in DuPage we're working on an issues canvas of our own. But the best of luck to you with it.

"In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing -- for the sheer fun and joy of it -- to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose." -- I.F. Stone

---

by: Gary Kleppe @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 15:24:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

no, this wasn't addressed to anyone in particular... (0.00 / 0)

more in the context dept.  and glad to hear that dupage has continued the tradition!

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 16:47:46 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't go door-to-door?!? (0.00 / 0)

Must have been another of my personalities.

---

by: BobB @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 19:27:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

see! this is what i get for writing a general rant... (0.00 / 0)

i should have used the frustration tag.

oh, and feel free to join us.  where we are going hardly seems like cook county to me, so it should be quite an experience...

"We have a lot of kids on the ground acting like adults and we have a lot of adults in this room acting like kids," President Obama told his advisors about all the infighting

---

by: bored now @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 19:34:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]